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...you see it your way, i see it mine, but we both see it slipping away...
I do ramble on, don't I? 
16th-Jul-2005 04:29 pm I do ramble on, don't I?
HP snape

I've been thinking more about HBP...

I've been trying to think of possible reasons for Snape to have killed Dumbledore and not be evil. Yeah, I'm reaching, leave me be. I'm in denial. It's a happy place. And I wouldn't put it past JKR to be really sneaky like this.

Anyway, as I said, what if there was a way for Snape to have killed Dumbledore but not be evil? Snape has always shown his willingness in the past to face up to reality, to be the one to make the hard choices, to realise and act upon what others won't or can't. He's the ultimate realist, nothing emotional or fanciful about Snape. And Dumbledore has never shown any hesitation in the past in sacrificing his pawns if the need arises. So what if this time Dumbledore was the pawn he was sacrificing? He said to Harry in the cave that Harry's blood was 'worth' more than his, that Harry was more important than Dumbledore. What if the same is true of Snape?

After all, Snape made the Unbreakable Vow in order to prove his loyalty to Bellatrix and Narcissa. If he hadn't done what Malfoy failed to do, kill Dumbledore, he would have died himself. And if Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, then Dumbledore would doubtless have known that, would have known that the situation might potentially arise where it would be a choice between his life and Snape's. Now if Dumbledore felt that ultimately Snape was more important to the fight against Voldemort than he himself was, I don't think he would have had any hesitation about sacrificing his own life to save Snape. And Harry. And by extension, the Wizarding World. And, of course, the only way for him to do that would be for Snape to fulfil his Vow and complete Malfoy's task - and kill Dumbledore.

Which takes me back to Chapter Twenty-Seven...and Dumbledore's death. JKR writes that Dumbledore was 'pleading' with Snape when he says his name. 'Pleading for his life' is the inference Harry makes. Now Dumbledore in the past has never seemed to me to be the pleading type. And he has no fear of death - as far back as the first book, he tells Harry that 'to the well-organised mind death is but the next great adventure'. Dumbledore is not afraid to die. He tries to dissuade Malfoy from killing him because he doesn't want to see Draco become a murderer at just sixteen, not when there is still hope for him, not when it is clear Malfoy doesn't want to do the actual deed. He's trying to save Draco from himself here, not save his own life.

But he must know, he must know, that if Malfoy doesn't kill him then Snape has to. And he also must know that Snape would. And that's the 'revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face'. Snape is revolted by what he has to do, hates Dumbledore for putting him in that position and himself for what he's about to do. But he would do it. And Dumbledore knows that. Perhaps that's where the pleading comes in. Dumbledore isn't begging Snape not to kill him, he's pleading with him to have the courage to do what needs to be done. And Snape may be many things but he's not a coward. So he kills Dumbledore.

The more I think about this, the more I see holes in Dumbledore's death scene. This is one of the most powerful wizards alive, the only man Voldemort is afraid of, the man who defeated Grindelwald, the man who in the previous book managed to escape four Aurors without even breaking a sweat, and he's practically felled by a sixteen-year-old armed with Expelliarmus? Yes, he was weakened by the whatever-it-was he drank in the cave, but even then he managed to conjure up the fire to save Harry from the Inferius. And he managed to practically outrace Harry on the broomsticks in order to reach Hogwarts. Yet suddenly he can't even defeat Draco Malfoy? Dumbledore's not omniscient, he can't have known that there were other Death Eaters about to appear on top of the tower - so why freeze Harry, ostensibly to 'save' him? If it were simply a matter of stopping Draco, he wouldn't have needed to freeze Harry to stop him moving to save Dumbledore. A simple Stupefy or Petrificus Totalus and problem solved, Draco's out cold. Harry's never needed protection from Draco Malfoy before. So why now?

The only explanation I can think of is that Dumbledore knew he had to die. Even if Malfoy didn't kill him then, even if the other Death Eaters didn't appear on the tower, and the Aurors defeated them and returned calm to Hogwarts, the Unbreakable Vow would still stand. Snape would have to carry out the deed Draco failed to do or he would die. So Dumbledore is faced with three choice:

  1. Save Snape's life, sacrifice his own, and force a sixteen-year-old boy to become a murderer.
  2. Remain alive but watch Snape die.
  3. Sacrifice his own life, save Snape's and provide him with an unshakeable demonstration of his loyalty of Voldemort.

I think Dumbledore would choose the last option. I think Dumbledore did choose the last option.

And what of Snape, are his actions after Dumbledore's death those of an evil man? It's hard to judge. He runs away, he flees with Draco, but then of course he would. Dumbledore has allowed him to prove, once and for all, that he's Voldemort's loyal man. He has to live up to that act now. So he runs. But he also stops other Death Eaters from torturing Harry, ostensibly because Voldemort wants him alive. He taunts Harry, but then he's always done that.

But the bit that made me pause the most is when Harry is down on the ground, saying to Snape, 'kill me, then. Kill me like you killed him, you coward'. And Snape screams 'don't call me coward', but there's a pause between 'don't' and 'call me coward', as though the 'don't' was an instinctive response to what Harry is saying about Dumbledore, and he's then twisted it into something else. And his face is twisted, distorted, 'as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them'. I doubt a man as self-possessed and in control as Snape usually is - with some exceptions, I will grant you - would react with such fury and pain to a sixteen-year-old calling him a coward.

No, the pain is in response to his killing of Dumbledore. If Snape were a true Death Eater, a true supporter of Voldemort, if he really hated Dumbledore, if he really had betrayed him as completely as it at first appears...would he be in pain over his death? No. He'd be exultant, gleeful, triumphant, gloating - all the petty reactions we see from him in POA when Sirius is captured and awaiting the Dementor's Kiss. He would be enjoying every moment, Dumbledore's death, Harry's reaction. And he isn't. He quite clearly is not reacting in this way. No, there's only pain. But of course he has to hide it, cover it up, make sure that Harry doesn't see it...because Snape has to be the loyal Death Eater now if he wants to stay alive. Any life he had as a double agent is gone now; he's akin to Sirius Black now, believed guilty of a crime he didn't commit: only Snape did commit it, but not for the reasons everyone supposes. So he casts whatever hex he casts on Harry, the 'white-hot, whiplike' slash across the face, the 'spots of light' dancing in front of Harry's eyes, to cover his reaction, to reinforce his new role. And then he's gone, to what we can only find out in the next book.

So you tell me, am I reaching? Am I in denial? Probably, but whilst I've been writing this I've been flicking back and forth through the book and I'm more and more convinced that there's more to Snape than we're seeing here. Although hasn't that always been the case?

ETA: I knew I'd forgotten to add something! In retrospect, what Hagrid says in Chapter Nineteen makes more sense now, about Dumbledore being angry with Snape. Snape is saying he doesn't want to do it (what?) anymore, Dumbledore saying he'd agreed to it and that was that. At the time we don't know what they're arguing about, we still don't, not really.

But it's not a stretch to suppose that Dumbledore's possible death is something they've talked about, in fact I'm sure they must have spoken about it at some point. Perhaps they didn't necessarily know the eventual circumstances, but with the position Snape was in it was always a possiblity that there'd come a point where it would come down to Snape taking drastic, perhaps unforgiveable actions or risking his cover being blown. I'm sure they would have been prepared for such an eventuality. I'm sure any good spy and handler would be aware that such situations can happen, and I'm sure that then just as now it's the mission that matters, not the individuals involved. But that doesn't mean Snape would like it. Or would even be sure of his ability to carry out such a plan.

ETA2: And one more thing - when Snape and Harry are duelling, Snape is giving him advice! Harry's trying to kill him and Snape is blocking him every time because he can read Harry like a book. Harry is trying to kill him and Snape is giving him Legilimens advice! 'Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!'

Oh, Snape. Break my heart, why don't you?

ETA3: I'm pimping this essay here now - so much of what I was thinking and more on the Horcruxes and the mysterious R.A.B.

Comments 
16th-Jul-2005 05:06 pm (UTC)
I was going to write up smeting like this, but yours is so complete...

The only thing I'd perhaps add is that the parallels between Dumbledore and Aslan (in C.S. Lewis's Narnia series) reinforce the idea of a willing sacrifice.
16th-Jul-2005 05:08 pm (UTC)
You know, I had the thought of Aslan in the mind the whole time I was writing this. It's the whole 'sacrificing himself' thing. I just can't shake the thought that somehow, someway, Dumbledore will reappear somehow, perhaps not in body, alive and whole, but I don't think we've seen the last of him.

'Course that could just be wishful thinking. ;)
16th-Jul-2005 05:23 pm (UTC)
(wandered over from Leaky Lounge)
You're not in denial, I don't think - or, if you are, then I am, too.

Your analysis is spot on. I believe, sooner or later every character faces a choice between "what is right and what is easy". The painful brilliance of the situation is that Dumbledore knows, and Snape knows that in this context Snape's easy option is to die, and the hard option is to kill the only person who trusts him. Hence, Dumbledore's pleading.

Reading your post was wonderfully soothing for me - I was starting to believe I was reading a completely different book to everybody else.
16th-Jul-2005 05:27 pm (UTC)
(what synedrian said.)

phew. I thought I was being all irrational and stuff, being in denial. i feel better now :)
16th-Jul-2005 06:02 pm (UTC)
Anonymous
Thank-you for validation of my own similar thoughts. :) cheers for a well thought out and written up exposition.

Thé§t®á£ (via Leaky Cauldron)
16th-Jul-2005 07:06 pm (UTC)
Thank you! I just had to get this off my chest and written down, just my own peace of mind!
16th-Jul-2005 06:20 pm (UTC)
I too could not believe Snape had truly betrayed Dumbledore, and I'm not even a Snape fan. It didn't feel right, and I think that "coward" scene showed that most of all. If Snape had to kill Dumbledore for the sake of DD's plan, then he definitely was NOT a coward and probably felt Harry had no right to call him that after committing such a difficult act.

I definitely think Snape will redeem himself. After all, what would the lesson be in Snape betraying Dumbledore? To not trust others or give second chances? Nah.

Thanks for this entry, I'm glad to see others who believe in Snape.
16th-Jul-2005 07:07 pm (UTC)
Exactly! JKR has always been big throughout the series on the importance of forgiveness and redemption, and I don't believe that after five books of gray area and moral ambiguousness Snape is just suddenly outed as a cardboard cutout villain. Plus, it shows Dumbledore to have been a seriously bad judge of character, and I don't believe that for a minute.
16th-Jul-2005 06:21 pm (UTC)
Anonymous
you're not in denial.
I completely and whole-haertedly agree with you.

YOu should mail this thru to mugglenet.com as an editorial. damn good piece of writing, and nice to see i'm not in the minority. :)
Dan x
16th-Jul-2005 07:46 pm (UTC)
Do you really think so? Well, thank you! Good to know a degree in English is good for something at least!
16th-Jul-2005 06:30 pm (UTC)
you've read my mind and then gone about 2 miles beyond. i'm still in the throws of no sleep so my throwing theories together is, well, it sucks, but YES! right on.

16th-Jul-2005 06:34 pm (UTC)
oh and i must add. i have no doubt that snape is good. it isn't even a theory right now. well, i guess technically it is, but i am like as sure as sure gets. i'm not in denial either. the clues were as blazingly obvious as were the ones that snape was the half-blood prince from the moment we see the potions book.

what did you think though, about snapes triumphant and kind of strange "i am the half-blood prince" thing? i'd love to hear it.
16th-Jul-2005 07:13 pm (UTC)
I'm still not sure about that. The whole 'Half-Blood Prince' nickame is something I can't figure. Is Snape proud of being a half-blood or not? Is he ashamed that he's the only half-blood in the Prince family? Or is it something he embraces? If that's the case it would be a funny thing for a follower of Voldemort - who's so big on racial purity - to do. But then giving himself a nickname of any sort seems a strange thing for a man like Severus Snape to do.

I half feel that it's a derisory thing - like a belief he can't quite shake. I think Snape does still have some lingering pure-blood/half-blood prejudices, that he is ashamed of his half-blood heritage and calls himself such a highbrow nickname in order to remind himself. He seems the self-flagellating type. And yet at the same time, he's certainly not one of those who holds to the belief that pure-bloods are better wizards. Maybe that statement to Harry is a subtle mockery (of Voldemort and his beliefs, perhaps?) - 'I invented these spells, me, nothing but a miserable half-blood'.

Maybe? Like I said, I am confused by the Half-Blood Prince thing...
16th-Jul-2005 06:37 pm (UTC)
I know everyone else is giving validation, but I want to chime in.

This is, indeed, precisely what I believe. And it -feels- more like JKR than just abandoning hope and making Snape Just Another Bad Guy.

Going to re-read today with renewed hope. ^^
16th-Jul-2005 07:14 pm (UTC)
It's so good to know that other people were having the same thoughts and doubts that I was upon reading. Perhaps it's just a knee-jerk reaction because we like Snape, but there does seem to be evidence in the text to back up our arguments. But I guess we won't know until the next book, huh?
16th-Jul-2005 06:37 pm (UTC)
Thank God I am not the only one with faith in Snape! Brilliantly thought out. Thank you for cheering me up!
16th-Jul-2005 07:15 pm (UTC)
You're welcome. I'm glad it made sense! And you know, I cheered myself up writing this too!
16th-Jul-2005 06:45 pm (UTC)
Anonymous
Thank you for that eloquant defence of our favourite (ex) Potions master. The more I think about it, the more fishey it seems. DD wouldnt beg! He just wouldnt...There must be more going on here.
Or maybe I'm just in denial too, cos my hearts been broken!
I actually yelled out "No!" when Snape did the deed....
16th-Jul-2005 07:04 pm (UTC)
i tried to manage a no, but it started coming out as heavy gasps and then when hagrid was like, "nothing dumbldore can't fix" my no came out.
16th-Jul-2005 07:12 pm (UTC)
Anonymous
Brilliant. I'm so glad I came across your entry. Here I was feeling a bit defensive to everyone thinking that Snape's a Black and White traitor, but your points do make sense. Were we all reading the same book?!
And I really can't see Dumbledore (the most powerful wizard of the age) pleading with anyone like that and the idea of his self-sacrifice....powerful stuff.
Dumbledore always trusted him. There's always been a reason for that, let's have faith in that still. Kudos and well done!
romdat via the leaky cauldron
16th-Jul-2005 07:19 pm (UTC)
That was my biggest sticking point. The whole chapter made Dumbledore seem like too much of a helpless victim, and we all know he's anything but! Dumbledore is not the type to 'go quietly into that good night', not when there's a war on and things are so desperate, not unless he can see there's no other way and he'd do more good sacrificing himself.

And with so many of the archetypal stories, from Christ to Aslan and back again, with detours for Gandalf and Obi-Wan Kenobi, I can help feeling that 'sacrifice' is the key thing here.
16th-Jul-2005 08:38 pm (UTC)
Thank you for writing this.

I was very torn at the end of the book at 7 this morning, desperately trying to think of how Snape was still a good guy because it felt so weird to think of him as 'bad'. You've reinforced my faith in the man.

I just wonder if there's ever a chance for redemption for him, especially if Harry refuses to forgive him. And all the other Order members feel betrayed too.
16th-Jul-2005 09:00 pm (UTC)
I hope so. I truly hope so. If all this is true and Snape really is a deep deep undercover spy, well...then I worry for him at the end of the series. Even if they come to see the truth about his actions and understand them, I don't think Harry and the others will ever entirely forgive him for killing Dumbledore. But then I don't think Snape would ever forgive himself.

I can't see Snape surviving the next book. I wish I could, but I can't. Even if he is redeemed and saves Harry or something along those lines, I just can't seem him living. I would see it quite within character for Snape to do something that he knows will get himself killed, because I don't think there's much in life for Snape. It was probably hard enough coping with the distrust the first time he turned against Voldemort, but the second..? After killing Dumbledore...?

I just have this horrible feeling that if redemption does come for Severus Snape, it's going to be a post-mortem redemption. Somehow it seems like the only possible end for him. And believe me, I don't like it one bit.
16th-Jul-2005 09:03 pm (UTC)
wow...I just want to reiterate what [info]smokingguncafe said and to say thankyou for being so succinct, I tried to type up my own but it was all...random caps lock and incoherancy XD
16th-Jul-2005 09:16 pm (UTC)
Heh. You didn't see my first draft. It was all 'omgsnapenodumbledorenosnapenoevilno!
16th-Jul-2005 09:15 pm (UTC)
You are amazing. Thank you for writing this. =)
16th-Jul-2005 09:17 pm (UTC)
*blushes*

Thank you for reading it.
16th-Jul-2005 09:27 pm (UTC) - And what was Snape's "iron-clad" proof of loyalty?
Anonymous
Excellent theory Denorios! You've hit the nail on the head. Dumbledore would never beg for his life! Snape is too complex to be simply evil!

Now, I've got one more bit of of conjecture to add to your theory: my idea about why Dumbledore trusted Snape so thoroughly and consistently in the first place.

Yes, Dumbledore claims he made a mistake by not telling Harry, that his growing affection for him prevented him from telling him the truth about the prophecy, thereby (possibly) putting the lives of untold witches and wizards (and squibs and magical creatures) at risk. But how do we know that's truly a mistake in the first place? Who are the ones who most often accuse Dumbledore of being too "soft", of always thinking the best of people? (The Ministry, Voldemort, and other misled, unseeing detractors.) How different might Harry have been if he had known from the beginning? Would he have closed himself off from everyone? Would he have experienced all the relationships he now cherishes, and which, clearly are central to his ultimate victory? How do we know that Dumbledore's "mistake" wasn't really a blessing in disguise, something that enabled Harry to be stronger in his fight against Voldemort? And wouldn't that make perfect sense, given that Dumbledore was acting out of love? It would be one more example of someone's love-guided decision protecting Harry. Loving others too much is not, I think, the basis of a huge, death-inducing mistake in JKR's universe. And it might just result in a somethign that looks like a mistake, but is really a salvation.

More importantly---while it's crucially important to realize that Dumbledore is not infallible (nor is anyone else for that matter)---can we all believe that Dumbledore's biggest mistake ever is that, guided by his belief in goodness and love, he gave Snape the benefit of the doubt? Or that, however motivated, he endangered his Order, Harry, and the whole wizarding world because he believed Snape was no longer on the Dark Side?

When Tonks said that she had always assumed that Dumbledore's reason for trusting Snape, which he appears to have kept to himself, was "iron-clad" shouldn't we have wondered what such proof could be?

I agree with your well-reasoned theory Denorius, and I think that the proof Snape showed to Dumbledore was something Snape has that Voldemort does not have, something that simultaneously gives him power Voldemort knows not and makes him incapable of being a die-hard Death Eater like Bellatrix (and we've seen how misled and vulnerable most DE's are--few people are truly incapable of love like Voldemort and Bellatrix; even nasty Draco's not heartless). No, Snape's not a die-hard Death Eater and he show Dumbledore something that it is impossible to imitate, as the new Potions Master reminds us: LOVE.

If Voldemort, as Dumbledore carefully pointed out, cannot bear to inhabit a mind (soul?) so full of love (even as Harry can visit his Dark mind/soul fragment without too many problems), wouldn't love help the incredibly talented Snape defend himself against Voldemort's Legilimency? And wouldn't proof of his ability to love (who, I'm not sure) be the only thing that would convince Dumbledore to trust Snape?
16th-Jul-2005 09:56 pm (UTC) - Re: And what was Snape's "iron-clad" proof of loyalty?
I certainly agree with you about Dumbledore and the prophecy. Had Harry known from the start, he might have done earlier exactly what he's done with Ginny in this book - closed himself off, pushed people away in order to protect them. And without those friendships, without the love and affection that Hagrid, Hermione and Ron (and Ron's family) bestow on him...not only would he be in a weaker position magically against Voldemort (just think of all the times he's been helped by Ron and Hermione) but I think he'd be a worse person.

Without those friendships at Hogwarts, I doubt the castle would be the escape from the Dursleys that it has represented to Harry, the home that it has been. And without the Burrow to go to in the holidays, he'd be around the Dursleys more, people who neglect, abuse and mistreat him. Without his ability to love and receive love, Harry would probably be a bitter, unhappy, resentful child, a child with a great deal of power and few restraints. Remind you of anyone?

But perhaps it's the cynic in me, but I really find it hard to believe that 'the power of love' can defeat Voldemort. It's just hokey. And somehow I don't think Snape proving that he loves someone would be enough to make Dumbledore trust him. Love doesn't make people trustworthy. It doesn't stop people from committing the most heinous acts imaginable.
(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
16th-Jul-2005 10:01 pm (UTC)
Anonymous
16th-Jul-2005 10:06 pm (UTC)
Amen to that!

Heh. I love it.
16th-Jul-2005 10:16 pm (UTC) - About Draco
Anonymous
Something else that hasn't been mentioned...which I'll get to in a moment...
I don't think Snape knew the plan when he took the unbreakable oath, I think he was fishing for info. I think eventually that he and DD knew and had to plan for every possible outcome they could think of. One of those was what happened on the tower. If Snape had refused to kill DD and died due to the curse, and Draco was unable to fulfill his roll and kill DD, someone else would have killed DD and that would have left Draco at the mercy of Voldermort and the Death Eaters.
Dumbledore would NEVER allow a child to die if he had a chance to prevent it!! He knew in that moment that it was him dead or Draco either dead or a murderer. I beleive this was an eventuality he and Snape planned for and that he'd rather Snape killed him than the alternatives. In that way I believe he gave his life for Draco's.
16th-Jul-2005 10:21 pm (UTC) - Re: About Draco
That's the key, isn't it? When Draco proved unable to kill Dumbledore, it had to be Snape, and Dumbledore knew that. If Snape had refused to kill Dumbledore, he would have died from the curse, Dumbledore would have been killed by one of the other Death Eaters and Draco would have had to face the Dark Lord's wrath at sixteen without his father or Snape to protect him.

I think that was an unacceptable outcome to Dumbledore. So he was pleading with Snape to make the hard choice, to save his own life and Draco's, by killing Dumbledore. It's so tragic. My heart breaks for Snape. And for Draco. I've never felt sympathy for him before, but oh, poor Draco crying in the bathroom, so scared and alone, and finally unable to kill his Headmaster.

JKR knows how to play with the old emotions, doesn't she? Evil wench.
(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
16th-Jul-2005 10:48 pm (UTC)
Anonymous
well after reading the book i was thinking what a bad ending... however after reading your theory i think and hope that you are right :)
16th-Jul-2005 10:59 pm (UTC)
Anonymous
I, too, have come over from the Leaky Lounge to read your theory, and I have to say it matches my own thoughts spot on - well done for being able to be so coherant so shortly after receiving the "Snape killed Dumbledore" shock! I was lying on the couch reading the chapter and sat straight up yelling "Oh My God!" - scared the hell out of hubby LOL!

Anyway, something else I thought I'd add - no doubt you've all thought of it, but anyway...

Dumbledore knows that Harry is the only one that can kill Voldemort, and he knows that with the choices he has (as outlined by Denorios), Snape is going to be of more use to Harry than he, Dumbledore, is from this point onwards. Snape is the only one perfectly placed to help weaken Voldemort (in whatever way, not necessarily physically) to help Harry in the final showdown. So if there had to be a choice between Dumbledore's life or Snape's, of course Dumbledore would decide that Snape is more important and that Snape needs to live on to furthur the Order's cause, even at the cost of Dumbledore's own life.

Kudos on a great essay, and I agree with whomever it was that suggested you send it into Mugglenet as an editiorial.

Cheers, Mistybuff
17th-Jul-2005 08:04 am (UTC)
I agree. Dumbledore made it quite clear that Harry is more important to the cause than he is. I don't think it's a stretch to think that Snape, if he is the man on the inside, is more imporant too. After all, what has Dumbledore actually done towards defeating Voldemort? He faced him at the end of OOTP but he was trying to save Harry, not defeat Voldemort. And he restarted the Order, but it seems like his main contribution is organisational. And providing Harry with safety while he grows up. But I never saw him playing a pivotal role in the actual defeat of Voldemort - but Snape I can definitely see doing that.
(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
17th-Jul-2005 12:36 am (UTC) - Brilliant summary!
Anonymous
I too have come to read this courtesy of the Leaky Lounge :) I just finished reading the HBP a few hours ago and must say I agree completely with the points made in your essay. I can't for one second believe that, if he wanted to, DD wouldn't have found a way to avoid being killed - he has let it happen for a reason.

I feel the tips Snape's giving Harry as he leaves the grounds (re. non-verbal spells) definitely fit with him being a 'good guy'.

I sincerely hope we still get a bit more Hogwarts-based adventures in the final book - we've just grown to enjoy the characters there too much to have them marginalised in favour of some romp around the countryside hunting for horcruxes. I'm sure the portrait in his office and Fawkes will be DD's main way of continuing to provide advice, etc. In addition there may be more memories left behind in bottles in his office ready for use in the pensieve.

Anyways, thanks again for the great summary and can't wait for book 7 :) (although on the downside I'm sure there will be that horrible feeling once I've read them all)

Alan :)
17th-Jul-2005 08:05 am (UTC) - Re: Brilliant summary!
I suspect I'll cry more at the end of book 7 with it being over (and I have a horrible feeling that Snape will die) than I did with this one.
(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
17th-Jul-2005 01:17 am (UTC)
(Leaky Lounge, of course)

The same thing dawned on me...

A possible explanation for Snape's look of hatred when he kills him is because you have to be filled with hate in order to use one of the unforgiveables. He probably summoned his hate from somewhere else, and it wasn't directed toward Dumbledore.
17th-Jul-2005 08:08 am (UTC)
I always wondered about the hate being necessary for an Unforgiveable. Does that hate have to be directed at the person you're trying to kill for it to work? If so, why can stray Avadas kill other people? And at the start of the book, Bellatrix and the fox? Did she hate the fox that much?

I think that hate is the key, being full of hate and anger, not who it's directed at. So just because Snape is filled with hate when he kills Dumbledore doesn't mean that it's Dumbledore he hates. Although he may well do at the point, for forcing Snape to kill him.
17th-Jul-2005 01:33 am (UTC) - About time somebody got it all right
Anonymous
I've been everywhere all over the place and eveyone is freaking out. It's like you read my mind orsomething. I'm so happy and I completly agree with you. you should try to get this posted at mugglenet.com at least. I'm not the only crazy one.
17th-Jul-2005 08:09 am (UTC) - Re: About time somebody got it all right
Thank you! I too freaked out at first. Maybe it's having a legal background but there just felt like too many holes, too many things that didn't fit.
17th-Jul-2005 01:51 am (UTC) - I quite agree.
Anonymous
Hi, Denorios,

I very much agree with your theory about Snape. For some reason, I have always (still do) believed that even though he may not be a nice guy, he is still a good guy.

After Rowling showed how Harry has often misunderstood Snape in the first five books, and how Dumbledore always goes the other route and states his trust in Snape with a finality that brooks no argument, I just cannot believe that Snape is what he seems to be in this book -- just plain evil.

The difference with HBP is that Dumbledore isn't around to profess his faith in Snape one more time, so the book ends with Harry's point of view, one which he has always been so keen to believe.

I think Rowling, however, left plenty of clues, which you observed so keenly, that Snape may not be what he seems, and that Dumbledore still believes in him.

Thank you for pointing these out. :-)

-lifeglider-
17th-Jul-2005 08:13 am (UTC) - Re: I quite agree.
That's always been the thing with Snape, his complexity, his mystery, the ambiguousness. He's not a nice guy but he is a good guy. I liked that JKR made her characters so multi-layered - so many of the Death Eaters are just evil, Voldemort, Lucius, all the goons were just plain, black-and-white evil. It was refreshing to see a man who wasn't, a man who, for all that he dressed in black, was painted in varying shades of grey.

And now we're meant to believe that was all a lie, an elaborate trick, and Snape's been evil all this time, right under Dumbledore's nose? I don't believe that. It's too simple an explantion. And JKR has never gone for the simple answer - she's always said that things aren't what they seem.
17th-Jul-2005 03:54 am (UTC) - This is a very good discussion.
Anonymous
I agree with what you have said, and I think that it makes sense, especially when realized that the events of that night and the aftermath were all viewed through the 'Harry filter'.

One thing I noticed that no one has really mentioned though, is Dumbledore's response to the potion he drank in the cave. After returning to Hogsmeade, but before seeing the dark mark, DD gets very weak, and when Harry sugests they visit Md. Pomfrey, DD insists that he see 'Severus' instead. (pg. 580 AM) DD is clever. I think he knew what that potion was, and what it was doing to him, so why did he need Snape? Perhaps for an antidote..., or maybe he knew that potion was lethal. Therefore he was going to die anyway and didn't want to take Snape and/or Malfoy down with him. On the other hand, DD has never feared death, maybe he knew that potion would inflict something worse than death. Maybe he'd rather die, and Severus knew it, (he is a potions master he could have recognized symptoms). Maybe that could contribute to DD pleading w/Snape. Maybe none of this is true, and Snape really is evil..... I don't know

The point is, in light of this, and everything else discussed on this page, I don't think Snape can be condemned as a traitor. Not yet anyway. We need much more information to go either way.

Things I'd Like to Know:
-What kind of potion did DD drink in the cave?
-Where did Snape take Draco in the end (safety or Voldemort)
-What 'iron-clad proof' did DD have that Snape had been redeemed (the thing w/Harry's parents was unconvincing to me.)

One last thing to remember. Dumbledore trusted him resolutely. Yes, I know he's dead, but look at Harry. Even after DD died, Harry continued to trust him and believe him (evident in his talk w/Scrimgeour). Harry has emotionally jumped to the wrong conclusions before, only to be proved painfully wrong. Just because he believes Snape a traitor doesn't make it the truth. Until proven wrong I will continue to trust Dumbledore's judgement, and keep that little spark of faith alive.
17th-Jul-2005 08:18 am (UTC) - Re: This is a very good discussion.
That's the thing, isn't it? It seems like everyone's going crazy because of the end of the book, but I think it all depends on who you are inclined to believe. Some people, like Harry, are pre-disposed to think ill of Snape, and they do. Others will defend him at all costs, and they do. And then there are others who aren't sure, who see what his actions look like, but see other stuff under the surface.

Me? I'm inclined to trust Dumbledore. He trusts Snape, and he must have had a damn good reason, because otherwise the man is guilty of more than just a little lack of judgement - letting such a man teach in a school? No, I trust Dumbledore. So I'll trust Snape.

At least until I'm either proved wrong or right by JKR. ;)
17th-Jul-2005 03:56 am (UTC)
I found this through the Leaky Lounge, and I must say, I quite agree. I was very reluctant to believe that Snape is evil, because I was reluctant to believe that Dumbledore could possibly be wrong. I agree that it may have been a plan between Dumbledore and Snape. As we all know, Snape knew of the plan for Malfoy to kill Dumbledore (which I guessed from the beginning). So, if he knew, and he is loyal to Dumbledore, then obviously he would tell Dumbledore what was to come. Perhaps Snape even guessed they would make him agree to an Unbreakable Vow, and clued Dumbledore in to this. I think that Dumbledore also knew that he still had things left to teach Harry, yet recognized that Harry alone could face Voldemort in hopes of destroying him. Thus, Dumbledore felt his role in the game was drawing to a close, and he would no longer be needed. So, he agreed with Snape, and allowed himself to be killed. This could also be considered the final convincing factor Harry needed to actually face Voldemort.
17th-Jul-2005 08:16 am (UTC)
Yes! Harry is going to need some powerful rage to give him that final boost to enable him to face Voldemort, as an equal this time, capable of destroying him. Harry's faced Voldemort before and messed up his plans, but he's never come close to destroying him. Something obviously had to happen to make Harry ready for that. And he could never do it whilst Dumbledore was there, guiding and protecting him.
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